Calvinism- Unconditional Election is WRONG

They were the ones chosen by God
God's divine plan- "The Mystery of God" [ref. Rev 10] was fulfilled in AD70 when Jesus returned in judgment of the 12 tribes of Israel [ref. Mt 19:28].

The Chosen of God were everyone from the time of Adam to those who were alive to experience Jesus' return in judgment of the 12 tribes of Israel whom God used to bring about the fruition of His plan.

Jesus chose His Apostles. And in order to be an Apostle, the Apostle had to have known Jesus personally.

His Apostles had twelve thrones reserved for them in Heaven and they were the the ones who were going to cast the final judgment on the 12 tribes of Israel [ref Mt 19:28].

The Roman army, under the command of General Titus, made the final siege on Old Jerusalem. The results of that siege fulfilled all of the end times prophecy- mainly the destruction of the temple in Old Jerusalem.

When Jesus left the temple His Apostles made the comment how beatiful the temple was. Jesus then replied that not one stone of the temple would be left upon another which signified its destruction. [ref. Mt 24:2]

When His Apostles heard that they immediately equated the destruction of the temple with His return in judgment of the 12 tribes of Israel. [ref Mt 24:3]

They asked Him WHEN and He answered "during THIS GENERATION" [ref. Mt 24:34].

And 40 years later during that generation's lifetime that temple was dismantled stone by stone down to its very foundation- exactly how and when Jesus had prophecied it 40 years earlier- during their generation, during their lifetime [ref. Mt 16:28]


None of us today are chosen. They were chosen ones, not us today.


Mystery of God
Revelation 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound,
the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.
At the sound of the last trumpet-
Matthew 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a [the last]trumpet, and they
shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
1 Corinthians 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet
shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
Colossians 2:2  That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all
riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and
of the Father, and of Christ;
Revelation 21:6  And he said unto me, It [the Mystery of God] is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the
beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life
freely.

Jesus told them that He would:

gather His "elect"* at His "2nd Coming"** (which was the final judgment of the Twelve Tribes*** of
Israel)-
*Matthew 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
***Matthew 19:28  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

that this would happen during their generation-
Matthew 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things**** be
fulfilled.
****"all these things" including-
- the gathering (rapture) of the elect (chosen) (Matt 24:31)
- not one stone [of the temple in Jerusalem] shall be left upon another (Matt 24:2)
**- Jesus' (2nd) Coming... the disciples equated His (2nd) Coming with the destruction of the temple
in Jerusalem; they also equated the destruction of that temple with the "end of the world"; the "end of the world" meant the end of the age; the end of the the old covenant age abnd the  beginning of the new covenant age of Christianity; Judaism and its temple were going to be judged; a new heaven because New Jerusalem, the Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom of God was "at hand"; New Jerusalem, the tabernacle of God, the dwelling place of God, was going to descend from heaven and
God would then dwell with man; that's why it's a new heaven- because heaven is now on earth and
God dwells in His Heaven which is now on earth; a new earth because heaven, instead of being "up
there", is now down here on this new earth that has heaven on it (Matt 24:3)
- "wars and rumours of wars" ... one major war that was on the not too distant horizon was the Jewish War(s) where in AD70 Rome captured Jerusalem and destroyed the temple where the "elements melted with fervent heat" and was dismantled stone by stone so that "not one stone was left upon
another"; armies began encircling Jerusalem in AD66- 3 1/2 years before the final assault on
Jerusalem; during those 3 1/2 years, the "two witnesses" (Peter and James, Jesus' brother) of Rev
11 began their prophesying (Matt 24:6)
- the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place...
the holy place meaning the "Holy Place"in the temple in Jerusalem; the abomination that caused the desolation of the temple was the "image of the beast [from the sea]" of Rev 13; the "image of the beast from the sea" that came to life was the beast from the sea that came back to life via his image that was constructed under the supervision of the "beast from the earth [Judea]"; the beast from the sea meant that this beast was from a foreign land; the beast from the earth meant that this beast came from Judea; the beast from the earth of Rev 13 was probably the high priest in Jerusalem at the time (Ananias?) and was also the "false prophet" of Revelation 16:13, 19:20, and 20:10; the high priest in Jerusalem had the citizens of Jerusalem construct the image of the beast and then allowed the image which came to life to stand in the  holy of holies, thus bringing about its future destruction, where its elements melted with fervent heat and then was completely dismantled so that not one stone was left upon another.

Paul mentions several times in his epistles:

Ephesians 1:4  According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we
should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6  To the  praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

Ephesians 1:9  Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure   which he hath purposed in himself: 10  That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might  gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: 11  In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to  the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: 12  That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ*....
*"who FIRST trusted in Christ"... Paul along with the rest of the Apostles were the first who
trusted in Christ and God made known the "mystery of his will"- the "mystery of God" when He wanted to and He chose that time period to do it and to bring it ALL to fulfillment.

THEY were a unique group not to be numbered any further.
When Jesus ascended  into heaven His choice group, the Apostles, were told by Him that He was going to return during His (their) generation, and that some of them would still be alive- (Matt 16: 28)

Ephesians 2:6  And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in
Christ Jesus:7  That in the ages to come* he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his
kindness toward us through Christ Jesus...
*That in the ages to come... This is a unique verse BECAUSE Paul speaks of a future time when people, in the ages to come,  will be able to read his words and realize "...the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus."  His epistles are letters and are all addressed to the Christians and the Churches he had established on his missionary journies. It is rare to find verses that acknowledge a future age where people of the future age are even mentioned. Most N.T. Scripture are writings that are addressed to people at that time in history. When we write a book or a letter today, it is meant to be read by people of this time period. When is the last time you wrote a letter to someone and mentioned that it will be read by peoples of another age in a distant future time? Or a book that has been written that the author specifically wants it reserved to be read by people in the distant future? The Bible is the Word of God but can also be viewed as a history of God's dealings with man. Paul's letters were personal writings to people at that time.

That is not the only verse:

1 Timothy 1:15  This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16  Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.
1 Timothy 1:15  Faithful is the saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief: 16  howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me as chief might Jesus Christ show forth all his longsuffering, for an ensample of them that should thereafter believe on him unto eternal life. (ASV)

These are verses that I believe show the uniqueness of Paul and the Apostles where THEY are the chosen ones, THEY are the elect to bring about the fulfillment of God's plan.

I believe it is foolish for any of us today to think that we are of the elect, that we are of the chosen by God, to be participants in the fulfillment of God's plan.

I believe that God's plan has been fulfilled:

Colossians 1:25  Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 26  Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: 27  To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: 28  Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus: 29  Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

2 Timothy 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, 10  But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: 11  Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles. 12  For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Titus 1:1  Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; 2  In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began; 3  But hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me* according to the commandment of God our Saviour;
* "...hath in due times manifested his word through preaching, which is committed unto me..."  and not some generation 1,000's of years into the future...

2 Timothy 4:6  For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7  I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8  Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. 9  Do thy diligence to come shortly unto me: 10  For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. 11  Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry. 12  And Tychicus have I sent to Ephesus. 13  The cloke that I left at Troas with Carpus, when thou comest, bring with thee, and the books, but especially the parchments. 14  Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works: 15  Of whom be thou ware also; for he hath greatly withstood our words. 16  At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me: I pray God that it may not be laid to their charge. 17  Notwithstanding the Lord stood with me, and strengthened me; that by me the preaching might be fully known, and that all the Gentiles might hear: and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion*. 18  And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

* "...and I was delivered out of the mouth of the lion".
When Paul wrote this letter to Timothy, he was imprisoned in Rome and Nero was Caesar and Nero was feeding Christians to the lions.  In AD64 fire broke out in Rome and Nero ended up blaming the Christians in Rome for it. History books teach us that, to the Romans, Christianity was regarded in Rome at that time as a radical sect of Judaism. "The Christians, popularly believed to be the most troublesome segment of Rome's Jewish minority, were already disliked if not actively hated. They were different and insular, their religious services were private, and what little was "known" about their beliefs was disgusting even to the bloodthirsty Romans.  This is what Romans had heard:  the infant god of the Christians grew up was eventually eaten, "body and blood" (the Christians said) in what the Romans considered a cannibalistic ritual.  And this was something which the Christians reenacted often. Why, they were worse than those horrible ancient Carthaginians, who burned their babies but at least didn't eat them.  Any Roman child that went missing led to inevitable conjecture." (from http://www.mmdtkw.org/VNeroFire.html)

Today's Jews resent Paul just as much as they resented him in the 1st century.
Paul was a Jew who became a Christian.
I wouldn't doubt, because history isn't clear on the subject, that Jews may have started the fire in Rome. If not, it could very likely have been the Jews who managed to convince Nero that the Christians were the ones to blame for the fire. The Jews could also have been the ones responsible for giving the description above of the Christians and their Christianity. They may have figured if they could get Nero and Rome to believe their lies about Christianity and the Christians practicing it, then, once they got Nero to believe that the Christians started the fire, Nero would begin executing the Christians and eventually the turncoat Paul.
Whatever the truth is on that, it is a fact that Christians were being fed to the lions starting in AD64 and eventually Paul was executed (beheaded?) in AD67. Nero supposedly commited suicide in AD68. The Jewish Revolt commenced in AD66.

I believe that for anyone today to think for even a moment that they are on par with Paul or any of the Apostles for that matter with his committment, with his missions, with their roles is absurd. THEY were chosen to fulfill. THEY were chosen to evangelize the entire world. God knew beforehand, God chose THEM to be the integral parts in fulfilling His Plan. NOT US TODAY. Paul sacrificed his life at the hands of Nero for his faith. Paul was persecuted by the Jews for his turning from Judaism and for his faith in Jesus Christ. THEY experienced it first-hand. THEY saw Jesus face-to-face. WE cannot make those claims, can we? I believe that God's "choosing" people, His "electing" people, His establishing nations and rulers of those nations ENDED when God did indeed establish His Kingdom. John the Baptist, Jesus and His Apostles ALL claimed "The Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom of God is NEAR. The Kingdom of God has been established. THEY were the ones who were integral in the fulfillment. THEY were the ones who wetre "chosen". THEY were the ones who were "predestined". THEY were the ones who were "pre-ordained". NOT US TODAY.

1 Thessalonians 1:2  We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers; 3  Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 4  Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. 5  For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. 6  And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost: 7  So that ye were ensamples* to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia. 8  For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. 9  For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10  And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come*.

*which delivered us from the wrath to come:

Seige Machines Used Before Final Assault on Jerusalem

Matthew 23:37  O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 8  Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matthew 24:1  And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.   And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 8 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 8 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Matthew 23:37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! 8 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

Matthew 24:1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Spoils of Jerusalem

The Arch of Titus in Rome Commemorates Roman General Titus' Victory Over Jerusalem in AD70

Nero Caesar Visits the Arena After Christians Are Put To Death In Circus Romana

"Nero Caesar" written in Hebrew, adds up to 666- the number of the "Beast from the Sea" (and his "Image") from Revelation 13.

Some Preterists Denying a "Rapture" Took Place

I recently received a post from a Yahoo Preterist Group, of which I am a member, where it appears as though the members of the Group are close to being unanimous in believing no "rapture" took place.

Most, if not all,  of the members of this Group are Calvinists. (I am not a Calvinist)

Many, if not most, Calvinist Preterists believe that a "spiritual" "Rapture" took place and not a physical one.  I am in total disagreement with this belief.

I have spoken to other Calvinists who believe that a physical Rapture did indeed occur.  I commend them for that.  I disagree, however, with their timing regarding the 'thousand years' and 'The Day of the Lord'.

The majority of Preterists have concluded that the 'thousand years' of Rev 20 began in AD30 and ended 40 years later in AD70 making the 'millenium' a timespan of 40 years.  I disagree with this conclusion. I believe they are focusing too much on the amount of time involved in the phrase 'thousand years'. It seems logical to conclude that a 'thousand years' represents not necessarily a literal 1,000 years (like all Futurists believe) but probably represents "a long time".  Thus, a 40-year long period is relatively a "long time". It's natural to come to these conclusions when one sees "years" in the phrase and then especially when there is "thousand" preceding the word years.

There are even some Preterists who believe and are teaching "Bimillenialism"- that there are two milleniums".  This I cannot accept.

I believe the 'thousand years' began when the 'two witnesses' of Rev 11 were killed by the (image of) 'the beast from the sea' of Rev 13, which I believe was 'the abomination of desolation' which stood in the holy place (the temple) of which Jesus spoke of in Matt 24 and was also the 'man of sin' Paul spoke of in 2 Thessalonians 2:3. When the 'image of the beast', the 'abomination of desolation', the 'man of sin' stood in the temple, the Tribulation Period began and that's when the 'two witnesses' began their prophecying in Jerusalem. Since they prophecied for a literal 3 1/2 years leading up to their death, the Tribulation Period began in AD66 and ended when they were killed in AD70. (The 'image' was the beast from the sea, who I believe was Nero Caesar and I learned that from J.S. Russell in his book The Parousia.)

I believe the 'thousand years' lasted for the 3 1/2 days that their bodies lay in the streets of Jerusalem.

At the end of the 'thousand years', the 3 1/2 days, Jesus Christ returned.
Simultaneously these events occured after the 'thousand years':

Revelation 20:7  And when the thousand years are expired, (1) Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 (2) And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to (3) gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9  And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and (4) compassed the camp of the saints about, (5) and the beloved city*: and (6) fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. (This is when the ('image of) the beast from the sea' (Nero) and the 'false prophet' (high priest Ananias?) were cast alive into the lake of fire.
*(the "beloved city" of Jerusalem where the "camp of the saints", i.e., the Christian Church in Jerusalem is; as opposed to "Babylon" the Harlot city of Jerusalem where unBiblical and antiChristian Judaism is practiced in the temple there which is about to be destroyed)
10  And (7) the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
The 'first resurrection' of Rev 20 took place at the very beginning of the 'thousand years' (Revelation 20:4  And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.)

(8)The resurrection of "the rest of the dead" (and subsequently the Rapture of the living) took place after "the thousand years were finished."- (Rev 20: 5)

Revelation 20:11  And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 (9) And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works*.
* The judgment (the wrath of God) on "Babylon" and all the unbelievers therein had began and the judgment of the dead believers took place.
13  (10) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works*.
* The judgment of the dead unbelievers took place.
14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death*.
* The final enemy, death, is destroyed by casting it, along with hell (Hades) into the lake of fire.  The 'second death' means that there is no escape from the lake of fire. Once there, always there. And with that, eternal torment.
15  And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

The Grand Finale:

Revelation 21:1 (11) And I saw a new heaven and a new earth*: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2  And I John saw (11) the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven*, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3  And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, (11) the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God*.
4  And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death (no more grave for those awaiting to be released because now, when a believer, who has "overcome" this world by his/her belief and faith in Jesus Christ, dies physically, their soul immediately inherits New Jerusalem, Heaven, the Kingdom of Heaven, the Kingdom of God and does not have to wait in the grave any longer) , neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
5  And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6  And he said unto me, (11) It is done**. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
*Thy Kingdom had come
** The "Mystery of God" (Revelation 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.) is finished.

All has been fulfilled.   Jesus said:
Matthew 24:13  But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13  And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
The end He is speaking of is the His Day, the day of His return. Those Christians had to endure the Great Tribulation. If they weakened and lost their faith during that time period, they lost their salvation also. They did not, however, have to endure the Wrath of God that befell upon Babylon Jerusalem and the temple because those who endured to the end were Raptured.  

Some preterists believe the "rapture" could not occur because:

"...a rapture of the Church in its entirety would render the world without the body of Christ to be a light. Christ said of the Church, "You are the light of the world," and "You are a city set up on a hill. Let your light so shine before men *that they may see* your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven." So this conveys the idea of an existing organism that communicates the living waters, healing leaves, Gospel, rain, showers of blessing, word of truth etc. In other words, "How shall they hear without a preacher?" Paul says. If the Church is raptured, then we have a Churchless world. Not to mention, there is absolutely nothing in the O.T. which indicates that the world would ever be without God's people. So, a complete rapture (disappearance) of the Church doesn't make sense. It leaves us with a destitute humanity which will seem to continue ad infinitum with reprobates who either all suffer eternal torment or all suffer eternal annihilation. This seems odd, considering the large numbers of people who claim to worship Jesus Christ and who claim to be loved by Him.

"However, that said, I have considered the possibility of a strictly Jewish-Christian rapture. But this again begs the question: Where is the documentation? There is plenty of documentation about the destruction of the Temple. But none about a rapture. It's much easier to see a bunch of first century people who expected a physical rapture and who were discouraged with a "great disappointment" who simply never wrote about it, or a late first century Church who did a little Camping style backpedaling with a twist to commence the doctrine of futurism after their hopes of a physical resurrection were dashed, than to believe in a rapture at all. And if they were raptured, and John's supposed disciple, Polycarp, knew this, then why didn't he write about it? Personally, I tend to think Polycarp either made up his relationship to John or others made it up about him anyway.

"The long and short of it: God came to "set His tabernacle among men," and make "His will be done on earth as it is in heaven..." not, bring them up and keep the earth void of Christ and Him crucified. And finally, Jesus prayed, "I prayed that you do not take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil (the leaven of self-righteousness of the Scribes and Pharisees)."..."

I believe the 'Rapture' took place and not one believer was left on earth immediately after the events of AD70.

Why?  Because Jesus and the Apostles said that there was to be a "gathering", a "rapture":

Matthew 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

1 Corinthians 15:52  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 10:7  But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

The "Rapture" was promised by Jesus and the Apostles and happened just before the Wrath of God befell Jerusalem.

There were no Christians left.

However, as was promised by God Himself, His Word remained after those events of AD70 as they remain to this very day and will remain for ever and forever.

Beware of False Preterists

I've pointed out in earlier posts on this blog that by far, the majority of preterists in the U.S.A. are also Calvinists.  I do not claim to be a Calvinist nor do I believe that Calvinism is the truth.  And I really don't see where Calvinism has anything to do with preterism. 

The first problem that I encountered with Calvinists was their belief that the reinstatement of Israel as a nation in 1948 was ordained by God.  My belief was back then and remains so to this day is that God really had nothing to do with the reinstatement of the Israel that we have today as a nation.  My interpretation of Scripture says that God cast His final judgment on (the Twelve Tribes of) Israel* in AD70 and had no intention ever again to bring this Israel we have today back into existence. 
(*- Matthew 19:28  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.)

Every time Jesus encountered the Jews, particularly the temple hierarchy and their Judaism that they practiced in their temple, He condemned them and their religion.  The great "Day of the Lord", the "Day of Wrath", that Jesus and the Apostles said would happen during their generation, did happen, according to true, full preterism. 

Why, I ask, would God want to reinstate an Israel, with its Judaism that was condemned by Jesus 1,878 years earlier, why would He reinstate an Israel like that, back into existence?

Unless God changed His mind on that Israel of the 1st century and decided to replace the "Israel of God", the true Israel, that Apostle Paul mentioned in his epistle to the Galatians and was established by God in AD70, with the Israel that He had previously condemned.

The Calvinists insist that God is controlling everything under the sun including man, and in this case, godless man.  There is no such thing as free-will to a Calvinist.  God is controlling everything and everybody.  God is choosing who is going to be a believer and who isn't.  In fact, I heard one Calvinist, who is also a preterist, say that God is the Author of Sin.

This, because, God is the Creator of everything.  And, since He is the Creator of everything, He is the Creator or Author of Sin..... This is the rationale I've been dealing with for some time now.

I cannot and will not ever believe that beliefs such as these is the truth.  And I also cannot see where Calvinism has anything to do with preterism.

But Calvinism is mild compared to John Anderson and his belief system.

John Anderson was a Satanic priest who converted to Christianity- which is a good thing. 

Then he became a full preterist and was involved with well-known full preterists until he branched out on his own and started preaching things like:

Adam was the Serpent in the Garden of Eden.

He believes that Adam was Satan, the Serpent, in the Garden of Eden. Nowhere else in the preterist circles that I have encountered have I heard of this belief. After hearing it, I did some research and suspect that Anderson may have been influenced by a fellow named Brahman who came up with the "Serpent-Seed" belief back in the early 20th century.  This belief focuses on sexual matters, i.e., Eve was tempting Adam not with "the apple" but with sexual intercourse... I kid you not.  Anyway, Brahmanism and the "Serpent-Seed" belief sounded eerily similar to what Anderson was teaching.  I did listen to a couple of his recorded teachings before I came to that conclusion.

Anderson's teachings have reached the ears of people I was introduced to in a preterist Bible study I helped get started.  These people claimed to be preterists and then as time went along they gradually tried to introduce Anderson's teachings, which they fully embrace, into the preterist Bible study.

Then I find out that Anderson also believes and preaches that the death Adam was warned about by God was physical death.  Therefore, Anderson and all of his followers do not believe the prophecies that death has been destroyed have been fulfilled:
1 Corinthians 15:26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
Revelation 20:14  And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Anderson also believes and teaches that there is no such place as a "Hell"(the lake of fire) where unbelieving souls are cast into and are tormented (Revelation 20:10  And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.).

The "Hell" that Anderson believes in only is the "Hell" Jesus mentions in Matthew 10:28:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

This "Hell" is Strong's G1067- "geena -- pronounced: gheh'-en-nah of Hebrew origin (1516 and 2011); valley of (the son of) Hinnom; ge-henna (or Ge-Hinnom), a valley of Jerusalem,..."
What they believe in and what they are preaching here is called Annihilationism- a false doctrine.

What Anderson and his followers are saying is that once an unbelieving soul dies, his body and soul are cast into the valley of Hinnom, which was being used at the time of Jesus, by the inhabitants of Jerusalem, as the city dump where all the garbage and refuse was literally cast and then burned and destroyed.  So their belief is that the unbelieving soul is literally "destroyed" by fire in the city dump and it is as if that soul, that person, was never born.  All of his remains, including his soul, are gone forever and therefore, the unbeliever's soul does not experience the second death and does not face eternal torment.

What these adherents to this un-Biblical "theology" choose to ignore and admit to is the remaining part of  the definition of Strong's G1067:

"used (figuratively) as a name for the place (or state) of everlasting punishment: KJV -- hell."

They have refused to reason with me thus far as to what this is saying. 

They refuse to believe that there is such a place where there is "everlasting punishment" like Strong's definition says there is. 

They refuse to believe that Jesus was using "ge-henna" or "Ge-Hinnom" figuratively for "Hell".  They insist that Jesus was using it LITERALLY...

And all the while they are calling themselves "preterists".

One Anderson adherent didn't want to continue our "preterist Bible study" with preterism as its focus.  He wanted to have it changed to a "Bible study" where the "truth" of the Bible is taught and discussed- the "truth" according to Anderson, that is.

These "Andersonians", as I like to call them, HAVE TO DENY full preterism because of the "death" issue.

They have only one type of "death" in mind and that is physical death.
1 Corinthians 15:25  For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26  The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
27  For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

They believe that since man still dies physically, "death, the final enemy" has not been destroyed; therefore, the prophecy of 1 Corinthians has not been fulfilled.

Needless to say, I quit going to the Bible study and eventually it disbanded- but the "Andersonians" still do converse with each other and get together on occasion.  I hear bits and pieces from the Calvinist that helped cofound the Bible study and it appears like they all are still leaning towards this, what I believe is heretical,
teaching.

Anderson has had at least some decency and has admitted to being an offshoot of "partial-preterism"- but his belief system really has nothing to do with preterism and his association with preterism is casting an unwarranted shadow on preterism.

The others, however, still refer to themselves as "preterists"- even the Calvinist that cofounded the Bible study with me.  One has started a "preterist" group on Facebook.

So, if anyone runs across these "Andersonians" all I can say is remember what they have been taught and what they believe. It IS NOT what true preterists believe.

P.S.-  I was informed today (4/22/11) that John Anderson passed away earlier this week apparently of a brain aneuryism.   see

http://home.ad70.net/tributememorial-broadcast-for-john-anderson/

http://home.ad70.net/voice-of-reason-john-anderson-has-passed-away/

http://deathisdefeated.ning.com/profiles/blogs/voice-of-reason-host-john?xg_source=activity

Needless to say I'm speechless right now.

A Futurist Can't Say That God's Kingdom, New Jerusalem, Has Been Established

Nor can a Futurist say that the resurrection of the saints has taken place yet.  Therefore, according to their theology, ALL of the Saints, from Adam to John the Baptist and the Apostles to those believers in these times... ALL of them are still in the grave, Sheol, awaiting to be released.

According to their theology, the judgment of the twelve tribes of Israel is still in the future which means Jesus' prophecy in Matthew 19:28-
"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel."...
has not taken place yet.  (Jesus' 2nd Coming is in judgment of Israel (the twelve tribes), NOT in the judgment of the entire globe like Futurists have been led to believe.)

And, accordingly, God's Kingdom, New Jerusalem, therefore, has not been established yet and the 'Mystery of God' which was understood by the Apostles and was to be fulfilled during their generation, has not been fulfilled.

I believe wholeheartedly that ALL Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled.  Why? Because Jesus and the Apostles said so.

Just these verses from Revelation alone have me convinced of it:

Revelation 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass...
Revelation 1:3  Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.
Revelation 22:6  And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.
Revelation 22:7  Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Revelation 22:10  And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
Revelation 22:12  And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
Revelation 22:14  Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city*. (New Jerusalem)
Revelation 22:20  He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

How I Came to Believe in Full Preterism and My Brief Critique of Today's Preterist Movement

In 1972 I was reading Matthew 23 and 24. When I read 24:34- "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.", the thought crossed my mind that what Jesus was saying was that His 2nd Coming was going to happen during their generation and that it, therefore, had already happened.

At that time, Hal Lindsey's 'The Late, Great Planet Earth' was a bestseller.  All of the churches, both Catholic and Protestant, were relaying the message that Christ's 2nd Coming was in the future- it is even in their Creeds that Christ's 2nd Coming is yet to be fulfilled.
So with that in mind, I immediately dismissed my thought of the 2nd Coming as already happening because who was I to question these authorities of the Bible.
But in 1998 I was introduced to Gary DeMar's 'Last Days Madness' which basically conveys the message, based on Matthew 24:34, that Christ did return in judgment when the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in AD70 by the Romans.
When I started reading that book, I had a flashback to 1972 and my views on Christ's 2nd Coming and what I believe is the true message of the Bible were forever changed.
Full preterists believe that all Biblical prophecy has been fulfilled.  The majority of full preterists today are adherents to Calvinism.  And there are issues that I have with Calvinism.  So therefore, I am not a full preterist with Calvinistic leanings.  I have tried to discuss this with these Calvinists but making inroads so far has been difficult but still somewhat fruitful.  I've heard various theologies coming from them based on Calvinism while they are trying to promote full preterism that I feel are detrimental to the full preterist cause.
Gary DeMar believes that not all prophecy has been fulfilled because, according to him, "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."- 1 Corinthians 15:26, has not been fulfilled yet.  Which tells us that Gary DeMar believes that the death that the Apostle Paul was talking about was physical death.  And one can also surmise that Gary DeMar must also believe that the death that Adam brought on was physical death also....  If this is the case then I have to say here that I disagree with him on this issue.  There are many Christians, Calvinists and non-Calvinists alike, that believe Adam's sin brought about physical death.  And therefore, according to them, if he would have never sinned, mankind would never have experienced dying physically.

There are many other false teachings in the Christian Church of today including false teaching coming from some preterists.  They are close, in my opinion, but in some instances are still way off course due to their misinterpretations of certain Scripture that was probably taught to them by clergy in churches they attended.

Then there is J.S. Russell.
In his book 'The Parousia', published in 1878, he convincingly points out using "time-indicator" verses in the New Testament that Jesus and the Apostles were without doubt telling everyone back then that His return in judgment was going to happen during their generation, while some of them would still be alive after Jesus ascended to heaven, awaiting His Father's command to return.
Russell also interprets Revelation pointing out the nearness of the great "Day of the Lord" and deciphers the apocalyptic language of the vision John had. He points out that Nero was "the Beast from the Sea" of Revelation 13 amongst other eye-opening "revelations" that have convinced me anyway.
But Russell believed that the phrase 'thousand years' of Rev 20 was to be taken literally as a thousand years. So he concluded in his book that that portion of Revelation (Rev 20) remained unfulfilled. But this I cannot believe can be true because throughout the entire book of Revelation it is indicated that that all the "things" mentioned in the book were about to happen (Rev 1:1, 3; 22:7, 10, 12, 20).
The 'thousand years' happens before Christ's return according to Rev 20. How can Christ live and reign with those saints who were beheaded for their faith in Jesus and did not accept the "mark of the beast' in a "perfect world" (according to most Futurists who believe that Christ's 2nd Coming occurs BEFORE His "Millennial Reign" in, therefore, a "perfect world' or a "perfect recreated earth", etc.) during a time period of literally 1,000 years only to have Satan be released from his prison at the end of the 'thousand years' so that he can gather the nations to war against the "camp of the saints" in Jerusalem, in this newly created "perfect world" where there is no death?... It just not make any sense.
I find myself disagreeing with the majority of full preterists today- mainly those who have their Calvinistic leanings.
There are many critics of preterism. I do not claim to know it all. But I will never be convinced that, just based on the time-indicator verses alone, that futurism, the belief that the 2nd Coming is yet to happen (and to some adherents of futurism, is going to happen any day now), has more truth to it than preterism.

The 2nd Coming WAS

The 2nd Coming of Jesus WAS the "last day" and WAS the day when the 12 tribes of Israel WERE judged:

Matthew 19:28  And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Luke 22:30  That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Futurists (those who believe Jesus' return is yet to happen) for the most part believe that when Jesus returns ALL people around the entire globe will be judged.  Then, after the judgment of both the quick and the dead, the entire earth will be destroyed and a new one will fill its place.

This is obviously a severe misinterpretation of Scripture.

Jesus told His disciples that they were going to take part in the judgment, not of all the people of the earth, both past and present, but of the 12 tribes of Israel.  And that He was going to return in this judgment that His disciples were going to be a part of-

during THEIR generation:
Matthew 24:34  Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

and that SOME of them would still be alive when He returned:
Matthew 16:28  Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

This is just one of many examples where Futurists have either misinterpreted Scripture and/or have been taught the wrong interpretation.

There are many more verses regarding end-time prophecies that have been misinterpreted and then subsequently taught- not only from the pulpits, but from seminaries as well.

I personally believe that there has been an ongoing deception and an attack on Christianity that had its beginnings when the earliest of Christian churches were founded and that this attack is still going on today.

That there is a certain group of people with their religion who have been responsible for this OVER THE AGES.  These people were the first to reject Christ as their Messiah and to this day they reject Him and have purposely attacked Him and His Church ever since the Church was founded.

I believe their forefathers who initiated this attack hated Christianity and the Church, not for what the Church and Christianity stands for, but for what happened to Israel in the events of the first century when these people lost their homeland to the Romans.  They resented what happened to them because they lost it all- and it was their fault, not Jesus' or the Christians or the Church's fault.  It was their fault. 

They were the ones who decided to rebel against Rome.  They did not rebel against Rome because of Jesus or His Church or the Christians at that time.  They rebelled against Rome because they wanted to be an independent, sovereign nation unto themselves, beholden to no one.  They didn't want to pay their taxes to Rome.  They thought they could take on the Roman Empire.  And all these grandiose delusions came about after they had rejected Jesus as their Messiah when they told Pontius Pilate that they had no other King but Caesar.

They have used Jesus and His Church and the Christians as a scapegoat over the ages to justify their loss of their homeland in AD70 to the Romans. And this tradition of hate and deceit against Christianity and the Church and Christians has been passed on from that generation throughout history up to this very day.

It was not Jesus', the Church or the Christians fault that they lost it all.  It was their fault.

As of this writing it has been a little under 2,000 years since that fateful "Day of the Lord" in AD70- 1,941 years to be exact. 

But to God those 1.941 years translates to a mere 1.941 days when you consider

2 Peter 3:8  But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.  9  The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

This passage gloriously demonstrates the PATIENCE of God.  God is patient with all of us, including those who have attacked Him in the past and are attacking Him now- He wants all of us to come to our senses and realize His Truth and come to repentance.

It's only been 1.941 days to God....

He's watching us- all of us.

Excerpt of a Debate I Had With A Futurist

I posted this in response to the Futurist's claim that Jesus' 2nd Coming was soon to take place. (Futurists are thiose who believe that Christ's 2nd Coming hasn't happened yet and that to some it is about to happen in the very near future.  Preterists on the other hand believe that Christ's 2nd Coming has already occured- back in the 1st century. This based on what Jesus told His Disciples and subsequently what the Apostles told the Christians of that generation- That Jesus was going to return in judgment during THEIR  generation while some of them were still alive...see Matt 24:34 and Matt 16:28):

2 Thessalonians 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
AS THAT THE DAY OF CHRIST IS AT HAND.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 FOR THE MYSTERY OF INIQUITY DOTH ALREADY WORK:
only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
(See Matt 24:15; Rev 13, 20; Dan. 7, 8, 11:36)
Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book:
FOR THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Mark 14:42 Rise up, let us go; lo,
HE THAT BETRAYETH ME IS AT HAND.
43 And immediately, while he yet spake, cometh Judas, one of the twelve, and with him a great multitude with swords and staves, from the chief priests and the scribes and the elders.
Why does "At Hand" in Mark 14:42 mean "immediately" and in 2 Thessalonians 2:2 and Revelation 22:10 mean 1,000's of years into the future to you futurists? 
 
And here the Futurist's response:
James,
Context, Context, Context!
If you read the previous chapter of Thessalonians it would appear as though the Thessalonians were told, perhaps by a forged letter, that they had already missed the Rapture, (the gathering together unto Jesus Christ that Paul mentions here in Thess.2:1 and already foretold them in 1 Thess, 4:16-18). This obviously would have been extremely troubling to those early believers because they would have thought that they were found unworthy to be Raptured and would soon have to go through the Tribulation as a result of being left behind. Here in Thessalonians 2:1-2 Paul is merely reassuring them and trying to put their minds at ease that they had not missed the Rapture, that it had not yet occurred: Thess,2:2. "That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us,
AS THAT THE DAY OF CHRIST IS AT HAND." -- Meaning that, that day was already here or had passed. Paul in 2Thessalonians 2:5 even reminds them of his previous teaching to them to further reassure them that the Rapture and the accompanying signs of the Tribulation that occur after the Rapture; had not yet occurred --5 "Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?"
James,
What really bothers me is that people who claim to be Christian are so lazy. This subject, as well as many of your other questions, have probably been written about and sermonized many times by some of the greatest preachers and Christian minds throughout Church history; yet here you are asking me these things. In the past I have directed you and others to Bible sites where your questions can better be answered, this by men who are much smarter and better learned than myself; yet with you and a number of others; I'm being asked these same questions over and over again. It's as if you people never went to these sites and followed up with what you say you wanted, namely understanding. And don't get me wrong, if I can try to help someone understand something about God's word; I'm glad to do it, but as it is, I find myself being overtaxed by the volume of questions coming from people like you as well as atheist's and others who have no intention to learn about God, Jesus and the Bible, but rather seek to disprove my beliefs and champion their own. I am not a Bible scholar, I am a simple Christian; there are millions of men and women better equipped to answer and explain the Bible than I am, they have websites and email address' too. In response to another poster on this site I offered him three or four very good websites, I suggest that you also go to one or more of these sites, as I have suggested to you in the past. If you cannot find help within the offered material within the site; the host's and creators of these sites kindly offer their personal email address' for personal questions and response. (this is usually posted at the bottom of the home page) If you don't want to believe or accept what some others teach and believe, then that's fine, but at least do your very best to come to the truth of these matters (provided we can know these things, which in most cases we can) by study, prayer, and by researching the vast wealth of existing material on these subjects. Take care and may God aid you in your quest for knowledge, but may your quest for righteousness and God's approval be even greater. 

My ( Preterist1951) reply to the Futurist "Paul": 
Paul,
I stand corrected regarding this 2 Thessalonians 2:2 passage. You're right- the rapture hadn't happened at the time of Paul's writing to the Thessalonians. He was reassuring them that a few "things" had to occur before the "last day" came. But you have to admit that they "sensed" that the simultaneous rapture and the Day of Christ immediately following it was near... that's why they were so worried.
They, along with many others were told by Paul, Peter, James, John and even Jesus while He walked the face of the earth, that the rapture and His subsequent 2nd Coming was going to happen during their generation (Matt 24:34)
That they were living in the "last days"- Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds
That "the end of all things was at hand"- 1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
That "the hour" has come- John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
2 Thessalonians 2:2 is not quite a convincing verse as say the 1 Peter 4:7 verse, wouldn't you say?
Those people back then were led to believe that the time was near- that's why the Thessalonians were so worried.
Now, on to your comment to Anonymous:
You said to him:
"The Church ( born again believers) are not mentioned in the book of Revelation past chapter 3; this because real believers will not be here on Earth during that period of time -- they will have already been taken up to meet Christ and will be dwelling in Heaven with Him during this period of time which is believed to be roughly seven years."
What about Rev 20?:
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, AND COMPASSED THE CAMP OF THE SAINTS ABOUT, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
"AND COMPASSED THE CAMP OF THE SAINTS ABOUT"-
This is just one of many verses proving that there WERE BELIEVERS MENTIONED PAST CHAPTER 3 IN REVELATION.
"...we wont be here during that period of time called the Tribulation."
What about Matthew 24:15-34?
Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 FOR THEN SHALL BE GREAT TRIBULATION, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, THEY SHALL DECEIVE THE VERY ELECT.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: AND THEN SHALL ALL OF THE TRIBES OF THE EARTH MOURN, AND THEY SHALL SEE THE SON OF MAN COMING in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet(THE 7th TRUMPET), AND THEY SHALL GATHER TOGETHR HIS ELECT FROM THE FOUR WINDS, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 VERILY I SAY UNTO YOU, THIS GENERATION SHALL NOT PASS, TILL ALL THESE THINGS BE FULFILLED.
So THE BELIEVERS DO EXPERIENCE THE TRIBULATION AND THEN ARE GATHERED (RAPTURED) ACCORDING TO JESUS.
I believe Jesus' words and His timing of events. Your interpretation isn't correct as far as I can tell.
Sorry, but i feel it is my Christian duty to set the record straight regarding the correct interpretation of Scripture.
BTW I am certain that all these events you say are about to unfold have already happened. Otherwise, Jesus and the Apostles certainly misled the people back then because, as far as I can tell, and I've been reading the Bible since 1972, they were expecting the 2nd Coming. I honestly, as one Christian brother to another, believe this to be true. If I doubted any of what I say or write, I wouldn't say or write it.
Sincerely-
James 

 Paul's reply to Preterist1951 
Now, on to your comment to Altosackbuteer.
You said to him:
"The Church ( born again believers) are not mentioned in the book of Revelation past chapter 3; this because real believers will not be here on Earth during that period of time -- they will have already been taken up to meet Christ and will be dwelling in Heaven with Him during this period of time which is believed to be roughly seven years."
That was an error on my part and I misspoke, and I'm glad that you found this. What I meant to say was that the Church (Born again believers) are not here on Earth, in the book of Revelation; during the Tribulation period. When Jesus returns to Earth, in chapter nineteen of Revelation (His second coming when He physically sets foot upon the Earth) He will be accompanied by His followers, the saved believers who were with Him in Heaven (the Church) --- Revelation 19:14. "And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean." So, clearly the church is mentioned again in Revelation after chapter three; but not during the Tribulation and not until they return with Christ in chapter 19:14. -- This because they had already been Raptured and were in Heaven with Christ! When we read further about Christ's triumphant return to Earth with His armies, (believers/Church) we see that Jesus puts an end to the anti-Christ and the false prophet by casting them ALIVE into the Lake of Fire.
Revelation19:19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
These two passages alone should dispel your notion that Jesus Christ's second coming had already occurred in A.D 70, and that Nero was the anti-Christ. Nero committed suicide, this is a WELL documented historical fact -- He, Nero, was not cast alive by Jesus along with the false prophet into the Lake of Fire. That event awaits the real anti-Christ at Jesus' second coming. Also, in Ad.70 there's no known false prophet who worked miracles with which he deceived all, both great and small, free and bond, and caused these people to worship the beast and receive his mark on their right hand or forehead. Neither or any of these things happened in A.D. 70. They are yet future events.
In addition to this, why had none of the historians mentioned Christ's return? Or the armies which accompanied Him? 

Preterist1951's reply to Paul: 
I notice you jumped into my questions about your comment to Anonymous without following up on my original answer to you about the Thessalonians.
Do you still insist that those Christians in the time period between 30 and 70 AD were not expecting Christ's return to be forthcoming- at hand like the Apostles said? That the Thessalonians were afraid about the rapture for nothing? That Jesus told them that He would return during their generation but didn't?........
That they were living in the "last days"- Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds
That "the end of all things was at hand"- 1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
That "the hour" has come- John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
I'd appreciate a follow-up on this Paul.
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Now you said above "So, clearly the church is mentioned again in Revelation after chapter three; but not during the Tribulation and not until they return with Christ in chapter 19:14. -- This because they had already been Raptured and were in Heaven with Christ!"
But what about Rev 20 Paul?
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, AND COMPASSED THE CAMP OF THE SAINTS ABOUT, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
"AND COMPASSED THE CAMP OF THE SAINTS ABOUT"-
The Beast and False Prophet were thrown into Hell in Rev 19- you are correct. What you are missing here is the "Image of the Beast" described in Rev 13. Nero, the Beast, whose name did add up to 666, died on June 9, AD68, but his image that the False Prophet had made by the people in Jerusalem, didn't. This Image of Nero came alive and was in the temple in Jerusalem. It was able to speak and was demanding the people of Jerusalem to accept his mark- Christians included.
It was the Image of the Beast and the False Prophet who were thrown into Hell in Rev 19. The reason they were thrown into Hell was, I believe, because they slew the "Two Witnesses" who I believe, according to J.S. Russell author of "The Parousia" of 1878, were Apostle Peter and James, Jesus' brother.
In Rev 11, the Beast (his Image) has the "Two Witnesses" killed. I believe this was the event that sparked the "thousand years". (The "Two Witnesses" prophecied in Jerusalem for 3 1/2 years before they were killed. I believe they started prophecying when "the abomination that causes desolation" of Matthew 24 stood in the holy place. This "abomination" I believe was the "Image of the Beast" of Rev 13. That was the beginning I believe of the Tribulation period and therefore they began their prophecying in AD 66.) When the Image of the Beast had the the Two Witnesses killed, their bodies laid exposed in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days. These 3 1/2 days were I believe "the thousand years" where Satan, who was still alive, was cast into his prison. Then we follow the chronology of Rev 20....
The first ressurrection of "the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years" followed by the end of "the thousand years" when Satan is released to gather the nations together to war against the remaining Christians and the Church in Jerusalem.
At the end of those 3 1/2 days, "the thousand years", "The Last Day" had come, I believe. It was in May of AD 70.
Satan was cast into Hell where the Beast and the False Prophet were; the remaining dead were resurrected and those alive were raptured; death was destroyed because those in the grave, Sheol (Hades), were released from the grave and reunited with Christ; Hades was destroyed along with death and was thrown into Hell (the second death of which there is no escape); and then the final siege on Jerusalem began under the Roman General Titus.
That was in May of AD 70 and by August Jerusalem was totally captured and the temple was burned (the elements, the rudiments, of the temple's sacrificial worship system, melted with fervent heat).
Then, New Jerusalem descended from heaven and from that time forward to the present day, God dwells with man here on the new earth with the new heaven.
Revelation 21:5  And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6  And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7  He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8  But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone:
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Paul- before you critique this please respond to whether or not they were led to believe that Christ's 2nd coming was to happen to them or that it was not "at hand" in the traditional sense, but was understood by them back then that it was going to happen in the distant future and that the Thessalonians really were worried about nothing.

Paul then replied to my question on the Thessalonians with a quote by another Futurist minister:
"· Why does Jesus tell us in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that “…God hath not appointed us (the Church) to wrath (Tribulation) but to obtain salvation (Rapture) by our Lord Jesus Christ”?

To which I replied:
"· Why does Jesus tell us in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 that “…God hath not appointed us (the Church) to wrath (Tribulation) but to obtain salvation (Rapture) by our Lord Jesus Christ”?
Your source of information, Grant Phillips, is wrong Paul.
It's too bad you and the others have to rely on others' interpretations to defend your eschatological belief system, Futurism, instead of using your own thoughts on the subject.
The wrath of God and the tribulation are two separate things. The wrath of God came upon the unbelieving Jews and their temple AFTER the tribulation period and the Christians did indeed have to suffer through the tribulation period:
Matthew 24:13 And ye shall be hated of all men* for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. (see below)
*these "men" referred to here are the Jews who were persecuting the Christians- see Acts 6 and the martyrdom of Stephen.
The wrath of God came upon the unbelieving Jews and their temple- especially those of the temple heirarchy. Jesus told them in the temple that God's wrath was going to come upon them; that they and their generation were to be the ones that were going to pay the price because of their false Judaism that they practiced in that temple, for their fathers' killing of the prophets AND for their future persecution of the church. (see excerpt of Mathew 23 below. I'm posting Scripture so guys like (there were two "like-minded individuals" who claimed to be Christians backing Paul, one who admits he doesn't read the Bible and the other who uses foul language against me) who don't read their Bibles but are the first to criticize one who does, don't have to sift through the clutter and dig their Bibles out, if in fact they even own one.)
Need I refer back to our previous discussion to remind you of Rev 21 which specifically states that at the start of "the 1,000 years", those SAINTS who were BEHEADED for their faith and did not accept the mark of the beast took part in the "first resurrection"?
That passage in Rev 21 proves your source of information, Grant Phillips, wrong; it proves, without a doubt, that the Christians did indeed experience the tribulation, some of them were beheaded for their faith.
And need I have to re-explain that when the "abomination of desolation" (which I personally believe to be the "image of the beast", not NERO, but HIS IMAGE which came to life and which I also personally believe was responsible for the killing of "the two witnesses" which in turn commenced "the 1,000 years") stood in the holy place (that very temple that was going to be destroyed by fire... the elements, that is the temple, and it's continuation of sacrificial worship and unBiblical Judaism, "SHALL MELT WITH FERVENT HEAT) the tribulation began?
And need I have to re-explain that "the two witnesses" of Rev 11 began their 3 1/2 years of prophecying in Jerusalem which led to their killing by "the abomination that causes desolation", the "image of the beast"?
And need I have to re-explain that the tribulation period ended at the end of "the thousand years"- the 3 1/2 day period that "the two witnesses" lay in the streets in Jerusalem but were resurrected along with all the other saints who were released from the grave, Sheol, Hades, and simultaneously those who were living were "raptured"?
That this was the sounding of the 7th and final trumpet and that this was Christs' return in judgment?
But more importantly, need I refer back to re-explaining that the Thessalonians were, without doubt, worried about the "rapture" and its imminence? That if the "rapture" was not imminent, that Paul would have certainly told them that they need not worry. Or, perhaps because Scripture does not coincide with Futurists' thinking, that the "rapture" was not really "at hand" in the traditional sense as they were told, but was in the distant future- possibly 2,000 years away?
Do you still insist that those Christians in the time period between 30 and 70 AD were not expecting Christ's return to be forthcoming- at hand like the Apostles said? That the Thessalonians were afraid about the rapture for nothing? That Jesus told them that He would return during their generation but didn't?........
Do you still doubt, because Scripture does not coincide with Futurist thinking, that they were living in the "last days" when you read- Hebrews 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds
Do you still doubt, because Scripture does not coincide with Futurist thinking, that "the end of all things was at hand" when you read- 1 Peter 4:7 But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.
Do you still doubt, because Scripture does not coincide with Futurist thinking, that "the hour" had come when you read- John 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
The following passage explains it all, including the tribulation that the Christians were going to have to endure:
Matthew 23:29 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ye build the tombs of the prophets, and garnish the sepulchres of the righteous,
30 And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
34 ¶Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
Matthew 24:1 ¶And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. ( I'm leaving the paragraph symbols that come with my "Theophilos" software for TDementedO to enjoy)
2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 ¶And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 ¶Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Go and do a search on my quotes on "Google" and see if you can find anyone else who said these words... You won't.
I'd appreciate YOUR response to this IN YOUR OWN WORDS, not some other theologian like Grant Phillips who happens to have it all wrong.
You do read the Bible don't you Paul? Or do you, like these others mentioned above, rely on others' interpretations? and make up your own brand of Christianity through the consensus of "like"-minded "friends"?
Are you an independent thinker, or are you too just a piece in THEIR game?
When that temple was "melted with fervent heat" and destroyed in AD70, that sacrificial form of worship was never practiced again by the Jews. It was the end of it.
This is all being presented to blind eyes but I must ask- does God favor the Jews or the Christians now?
Would Jesus today retract His condemnation He gave the Jews 40 years prior to their downfall in AD70?
If Jesus had to do it all over again, would He have postponed His 2nd Coming?
God is watching all of us, AMEN.

Paul never responded and didn't answer my questions regarding

the Thessalonians- that they were indeed afraiid that the Rapture had already occured  and that is why they were worried. They were worried because they were led to believe that Jesus' 2nd Coming was imminent. Paul refused to admit that the Thessalonians were expecting Christ's return in the very near future, not 1,000's of years into it.

 and the Rapture- that the Christians did have to live through the "Tribulation Period" before they were raptured (unlike his claim or should I say Grant Phillips'claim that Christians will not have to live through it) and that the "Wrath of God", the "Day of Wrath", The Day that Jesus returned in judgment on the House of Israel and the temple, JESUS' 2nd COMING was a seperate event from the Tribulation.

He had to rely on his friends who had to resort to name-calling (I'm a Nazi according to them, a cultist, etc.).  It is typical and I can expect this type of behavior from those who refuse to admit that they are wrong regarding the correct interpretation of Scripture.